[Lil Nas X]
Cool socks and shoes. You know—

[Zane Lowe]
Thanks.

[Lil Nas X]
You know, Vans are my favorite shoes 'cause you can just wear them at any time and any occasion.

[Zane Lowe]
I agree. I have this kind of philosophy when it comes to shoes and, for the most part, it revolves around "Vans and Mans", right? The kind of grown-up sort of hard-soled, I'm-out-and-doing-business, looking-good shoe—can't-run-in-them kind of shoe, and then the Vans which is the more sort of casual, can-wear-them-almost-anything type.

[Lil Nas X]
I've seen people wear Vans to weddings—

[Zane Lowe]
You can do it!

[Lil Nas X]
—and proms.

[Video Interlude]

[Zane Lowe]
This is obviously a creative place. This is a studio. I mean, you don't have to be a genius to figure that out—we're surround by synths and equipment and a basic set-up—and it's kind of your classic sort of atypical studio now, bro; like, you could live here, you could work here—
[Lil Nas X]
Wait, is this the start of the interview?

[Zane Lowe]
Dude, we're always recording.

[Lil Nas X]
Oh, okay!

[Zane Lowe]
You want a formal introduction?

[Lil Nas X]
No, it was just, like, you just kind of kicked in— we were having a casual conversation—

[Zane Lowe]
{humorously} Good afternoon. We're joined today by a phenomenon and icon. Someone who divides opinion as successfully as he has been successful within his own art.

[Lil Nas X]
{humorously} Yes, Zane Lowe.

{both laugh}

[Zane Lowe]
I wonder when I come into a place like this what your relationship is with studios, whether you would feel comfortable going into a formal recording studio any more because I feel like you can record anywhere now, right?
[Lil Nas X]
Yeah, I just love any studio, honestly, but I love the comfort of this one specifically because it just feels like home, you know?

[Zane Lowe]
Yeah. Why? How do you know? Are you a feng shui, "vibe" kinda person? Do you know when you walk in a room, it's like, this is comfortable for me?

[Lil Nas X]
No. Just, like, like the rug. Like, look at this rug. Or, as opposed— you know, I go to a studio, then I'm worried about a random person accidentally walking in and stuff like that, you know, 'cause that happens so often.

[Zane Lowe]
You like to keep a pretty closed environment when you record?

[Lil Nas X]
Yeah, that too, 'cause I don't want people hearing my music while it's in progress and stuff. I hate that.

[Zane Lowe]
So, how do you know when you're ready for people to hear it?

[Lil Nas X]
When it's completely finished.

[Zane Lowe]
And how do you feel when that's the case? Like, "Okay, I don't mind people hearing this now rather than me still kind of analysing it to the point—"

[Lil Nas X]
When it's, like, a couple days before it comes out, so—
[Zane Lowe]
So, someone has to tell you it's time, basically, is what you're saying?

[Lil Nas X]
If I love it enough, I'm comfortable enough, I'll wanna play it, you know? Yeah. I also just try to get everybody's opinion on stuff out of my head so I can make sure I love it first before anybody else starts filtering it in my head and making me look at it differently, you know?

[Zane Lowe]
But I feel like, the earlier records you put out, you were sort of running the whole thing, right, to some degree?

[Lil Nas X]
One hundred, but my brother was there, too. My brother was there in the beginning before he went to the Army so that was cool.

[Zane Lowe]
You get on well with him?

[Lil Nas X]
Yeah, I get along well with him. He should be getting out soon and maybe we'll do some things.

[Zane Lowe]
He's into music as well, he loves music?

[Lil Nas X]
He actually started making music himself and he's been trying to become a producer but it's a lot on his plate with being in the military—that's a big thing.

[Zane Lowe]
I'm sure I speak for everyone, I say we gotta thank him for his service, man. That's a real commitment. It must be crazy for him as well to watch his bro. He's doing what he loves to watch his bro from a distance—'cause even if you're in service, you can't avoid the news and you're in the news so it must be mad. You must speak to him sporadically and he's like, "Bro, it's so crazy watching this from a different place."

[Lil Nas X]
It's insane 'cause we were together for the first five months of me making music and then boom, he leaves; two months later, I put out my first hit song.

[Zane Lowe]
When you have the kind of success you've had so quickly, does it make the world smaller or bigger? Do you feel like, "Wow, if I can reach this man people with one song—" 'cause when you're growing up and you're in your bedroom dreaming it up, wherever you live, sure, the world seems gigantic, impossible to reach, and then you see the whole word hyperfocused on you—how does that change your perception of what's possible?

[Lil Nas X]
I think that's actually what made me start to do music, 'cause I started to see the world as smaller. Once you're on the internet all the time, you realize everything's so connected and nothing's really out of reach and I guess that helped me push myself to hop right on in.

[Zane Lowe]
How long has it been?

[Lil Nas X]
I started in 2018, 2019... yep, three years. It's been about three years now.

[Zane Lowe]
But you talk about 2018 on the new album—congrats, by the way. MONTERO, man. You must be really proud of that body of work because—

[Lil Nas X]
I am so proud. I actually committed to that and 100% gave it my all and I can say that. I can say that.

[Zane Lowe]
And we can say that too, those that have heard it. You've left nothing off; you've left it all on the room and you've covered almost every conceivable I can imagine that has affected you to some degree over the course of your life and before we knew who you were as well, and that's one of the great things about this record is there are real revelations about your upbringing and who you were versus who you are now and how far you've had to come. Was it tough to write that stuff, to go back? It's easy to talk about, "**** the haters. I'm successful. You think I'm gonna suck."

[Lil Nas X]
{humorously} **** you, haters! I'm the best.

[Zane Lowe]
That's right in front of your nose, but to tell a story about your family and about how you were perceived as a kid versus how you looked at yourself requires you to dig back and deep.

[Lil Nas X]
I guess I was always and still am afraid of being any kind of vulnerable because the the world works, if you tell them your darkest secret, the second somebody doesn't like you, they are gonna throw that **** in your face, you know?

[Zane Lowe]
But there's a theory about this though, 'cause that's how we all feel in life—that's why we protect ourselves—but there's this theory within the arts that the more you actually release it and free it, the less control it has over you.

[Lil Nas X]
Yeah. They can't use it against you or you can't use it against yourself.

[Zane Lowe]
Has that worked for you during the process of this record, uncovering some of these real fears you've had?

[Lil Nas X]
One hundred. I feel like, the popular phrase of "Taking my power back"—on a lot of things, it was like, "Okay, if I'm okay with this situation, if I'm okay to acknowledge that this happened or this is happening, then I can be at peace with myself."

[Zane Lowe]
I feel like we need to start at the end of the record 'cause "AM I DREAMING" is such a powerful moment. I feel on that song, you and Miley Cyrus who's the guest vocalist and collaborator on that song—

[Lil Nas X]
She's amazing. She's literally a God.

[Zane Lowe]
The very end of the song, you talk about the hope of not being forgotten and then there's the sound of a splash and I wonder what that represents to you.

[Lil Nas X]
It represents the ending. The song is basically—let's say you're on a sinking ship; everything is going down and you're dying, basically, and you're having all these thoughts about what everybody's gonna feel. You can't even settle in your own death; your mind is like, "What's everybody gonna think? Am I gonna be remembered? Am I gonna be loved?" and then at the end, it's like death. It's the end of the album. And once you see the album cover, it's a continuous cycle because I feel like once we're gone here, we're doing something next, somewhere else.

[Zane Lowe]
I agree with that but while we're on this planet, if you have any sense of an ambition or a desire to reach people on a massive scale, then that word "legacy" comes into mind at some point, and for you to acknowledge your end—at the end of what is your first significant body of work, full length—would suggest that you're already thinking about how you'll be perceived when you're gone, 'cause there's a little bit on that song of "I wanna be remembered." but it's also "You'll be sorry when I'm gone." That's what I got from it, a little bit.

[Lil Nas X]
I wasn't necessarily tryna get that across but I just feel like artists in general—especially certain demographics of artists—are less appreciated or remembered no matter what they do, they may never get their credit or whatnot, and not even saying myself 'cause I still have a lot to do but there's a lot of people that have come before that I've seen washed under the rug. Honestly, 100%, gay artists in general are swept under the rug and no matter how much they've contributed it's just like, "Oh, but they were gay so it kinda doesn't count."

[Zane Lowe]
Or, "I appreciate them and their queerness on my terms." Like, "You can be 'a gay' I can appreciate" as opposed to just be gay, you know what I mean? And that's, I think— man, you tell me from withinside the community about whether or not you feel that change is happening and coming because it is painful to watch artists who represent something so deep be recontextualised and owned by the bigger narrative because it suits that purpose.

[Lil Nas X]
Just looking around and seeing all these other artist who are gay pushed to this box, this bowl of gay artists, like "You're here." Especially right now with female rappers, I think that's so dope that that's happening 'cause we haven't seen this ever, so many female rappers that are just ****ing killing it and I feel like a decade from now, it's gonna be the same with gay rappers or any rappers— I feel like they're gonna be entire trans rappers and whatnot killing it because why not?

[Zane Lowe]
Why not? One of the things I love about the way you move is that you like to shine a light back on someone's reaction to your music and you pick your fights really carefully and sometimes you're just really outspoken and state your position but I feel like there's times when someone will say something to you or about you and you almost point the mirror back at them and show people what they're saying and how they're reacting and, "Are you okay with being this? Did you hear what you just said about—? Are you okay with that?" It's almost like a martial art, like you absorb the energy of someone else and let them take their own fall.

[Lil Nas X]
I definitely make sure I am picking my fights carefully and I try to pick out the ones that I'm like, "Okay, here's something to actually talk about." Because someone just like, "Trash gay."—there's nothing there, but if someone's like, "You're pushing this and this is destroying black men as a whole." and emasculation—this is someone who actually believes something versus just an insult, so it's like, "Lemme talk to this person." 'cause you never know whose mind is flickering, 'cause I've had a lot of views that I've changed within the last three years.

[Zane Lowe]
And I think as human beings, we reserve the right to change our minds and to learn and grow. That's actually, in many respects—if you do it the right way—can be very powerful.

[Lil Nas X]
I try to never personally insult people, just try to get my point across.

[Zane Lowe]
You do it really well and you do it through your music. You subvert beautifully through your music as well. I was speaking to Lizzo about this and Lizzo does the same thing: she lulls you in with a certain sense of glamour and fun but then she educates you through the process and that's obviously important to you, right? It's important that your music is layered.

[Lil Nas X]
I love Lizzo. Yeah. It's more important now than it was two years ago.

[Zane Lowe]
Think about that, two years ago. Let's get back to the end of the album and you're working with Miley Cyrus. So, I feel like the Cyrus family embraced you at a time when very few people were within the industry. "Old Town Road" came out and it was either kids loved it or I just thought it was a novelty or people straight-out hated, wanna disregard it, not even chart it, and here's Billy Ray Cyrus saying, "No, I stand by it." I feel like the Cyrus family were there for you in a way.

[Lil Nas X]
Absolutely. They came and they were just all sweet to me.

[Zane Lowe]
So, how's the relationship with Miley developed? Because she's not just part of the family that were there for you but also, she's part of your extended family now within the business.

[Lil Nas X]
Miley is just the sweetest person ever and I feel like she's one of those people that don't even realize how impactful and how much of a legend they already are and what they have done and what they're doing right now, even to this day—and I really admire her and her ability to constantly change herself.

[Zane Lowe]
Well, she's someone who I think has come out of her predisposed identity and had to figure out who she really is.

[Lil Nas X]
It's so hard to do. It's so hard to do and I respect that. I really respect that.

[Zane Lowe]
And you must relate to it.

[Lil Nas X]
Absolutely. That's another thing; I guess another thing we can connect on—maybe never spoke about but yeah, I feel that.

[Zane Lowe]
When was it at its most powerful that all of our perception of who you are versus who you really knew you were or wanted to be—when did it become a crisis for you?

[Lil Nas X]
I think it began the second August hit—the second August of 2019 hit—but it really hit during 2020 'cause this is during the time where I'm not really putting out any music, COVID just hit, I haven't even been really making any music very much, and it's kind of like anything that anyone says is getting to my head and it's hitting. It was starting to get to the point where it was starting to settle in my mind like, "Oh, my God—they're right!" Then I was like, "Wait. No, they're not the **** right. I created this. I can create more and more and more and more and my ceiling is what I decide it is." I had to force myself back into that mindset because when so many people are saying the same thing, it becomes like, "Okay, this is truth."

[Zane Lowe]
How's it getting to you? Are you opening yourself up to that feedback? Otherwise, how does it get to you?

[Lil Nas X]
It gets to you when it's like, "Okay, they're saying this and they have this to back it up, so why isn't this true?" and I'm also not loving what I'm creating right now musically, not that it was much in that time, and it was just hitting and it was hurting and it was really painful to feel.

[Zane Lowe]
Were there moments when—even just a fleeting moment—when you actually asked yourself, "Are they right? Was this a fluke?"

[Lil Nas X]
Yes. You're alone by yourself in your house, with COVID and whatnot, and it seems like everything else just disappears. That's when the world became super-big again and I had to shrink it back down within my mind.

[Zane Lowe]
Were there moments before you were making music and you were out—we knew who you were—where you were trained to be able to deal with these misconceptions and these challenges based on what you experienced as a kid, before fame or any of that sort of ****? What was your upbringing like?

[Lil Nas X]
I think as I first moved with my dad after my dad got custody of me and my brother when I was around 9 or 10, I believe that's when I became the most self-conscious, the most self-aware, and that started to grow more and more, especially when I got into Stan Twitter and whatnot, defending another human being and to me, it's like fighting for what you believe is right. Having something to stand for.

[Zane Lowe]
That's what the internet and social media ultimately afforded you, right? Was that chance to believe in something.

[Lil Nas X]
Yeah, to believe in something. That's when I started questioning spirituality and religion and whatnot. I was getting into all this stuff at 14.

[Zane Lowe]
Super-formative age.

[Lil Nas X]
And that's why when I hit 16/17, probably super depressing, until college which was the worst.

[Zane Lowe]
Why?

[Lil Nas X]
I went into there thinking it was not gonna be like high school but like high school, and I didn't really have many or any friends at all except people I knew from high school. I would barely see them, smoke all the time—that's the only time I would have with friends, when I was smoking, and my family didn't really come down there, not because— they couldn't 'cause, it's like—

[Zane Lowe]
It's really tough because I think you're searching for not only your place in the world but you're also searching for people to support you and nurture that experience.

[Lil Nas X]
At some point, I was like, "Maybe I don't deserve that." It was just a hard period.

[Zane Lowe]
And then, music saves.

[Lil Nas X]
Music saved my entire life. I know all artists say it and I truly get it now. It gave me an outlet to have more of a purpose, have something that I want to dedicate myself to, have something I love, have something I'm not doing for somebody else. Because I felt like at some point, I was doing college and **** so one day, I could say, "Look, I have this diploma or whatever the **** so I'm not a ****-up. I did good in life."

[Zane Lowe]
So much of what puts us on our path through life is about trying to prove something to someone or somewhere. It makes sense to me now you talk about your relationship with music—I think about a song like "DEAD RIGHT NOW" and the lyric, "I would have died for this."

[Lil Nas X]
I was literally there 'cause the entire time I was making music, I felt soon I was going to die for some reason. Worst anxiety period. I lost my grandmother and it was the first person that was close to me that I had ever lost; I was like, "Oh, my God. Everything's building up." and then especially when ****in' "Old Town Road" blew up, I was like, "Oh, definitely dying soon." All of these artists that were coming into or starting to pop into the music industry were passing away. I was like, "What the **** is happening?"

[Zane Lowe]
I can't even imagine what it must have felt like to have those levels of anxiety and feel like your life is actually under threat, like you're not gonna survive this experience, while everyone's tryna get your attention.

[Lil Nas X]
I guess I tried to ignore it until it went away and then that's when I found belief in the universe for sure and I was like, "Oh, my God. I'm really not alone in this."

[Zane Lowe]
When you were tryna ingore it... most people ignore that kinda pressure with distractions. Dalliances into substances—

[Lil Nas X]
That's another thing music was for me, though. It was something I love but it was also a distraction from those thoughts. It's like, all those thoughts—shwoop! "Here's the song, guys!"

[Zane Lowe]
That's the healthy way to do it. The unhealthy way to do it is through self-destruction. Did it ever get that bad?

[Lil Nas X]
Only with weed but it was more like I would smoke seven times a day and not even realize I was smoking so much that I had pneumonia and I didn't realize it for an entire month and they were like, "Oh, you really have to stop smoking right now." There was literally liquid in my lungs and it was crazy—I was sick.

[Zane Lowe]
It's really fascinating hearing these stories because it just brings into context some of the lyrics and the lines and the stories that you put into this album and I refer back to what we said at the beginning which is you really layered it all out there for people to hear. What's the song or the line or the story that is most powerful to you on the album? The one that when you put it down in a creative context, it hit hard and you knew you had to have so courage in order to release it?

[Lil Nas X]
Maybe the third verse on "DEAD RIGHT NOW"—it's when I talk about my mom, and probably because it's one of those things that's ongoing in life that I think, "Why? Why is this happening? Why?"

[Zane Lowe]
Yeah, the thing that is really interesting about the music that you make is that it's cleart to everbody now how's stayed with you and is a fan that you're not a stranger to pain. There's quite a lot of pain on this record. Songs like "VOID"—tough to listen to. "SUN GOES DOWN"—a lot of acknowledgements of tough times that go through it. How do you create out of that? How do you get to that place where you're able to pull that out?

[Lil Nas X]
I feel like with this album, I know what I wanted—I know where I wanna be in life—and I know that's gonna take me being more open and bringing out of myself no matter how much it hurts or feels uncomfortable to say things that I need to say, and that's even with more of the songs on the sexual side. With "Call Me By Your Name", in the studio with my friends saying this on a song, that was super-uncomfortable to the point where it was just like, tryna awkwardly laugh it away.

[Zane Lowe]
Then you have to go on stage and you have to perform it—or you choose go and perform it—and bring it to life, and that's the moment where, to me, you really remind me of Madonna in that way in the sense that she would be attacked by all of these factions of society that were offended by the decisions she made creatively or in performance and rather than apologise for them, she would double down because she believed that she was right and she became an icon through that space. Takes real courage. What's it like when you're in the moment and you trust your instinct over the other part of your psyche which is telling you, "Don't do it. Scary. You're gonna be attacked. It's gonna get louder. It's gonna get more intense."—how do you get yourself over that line?

[Lil Nas X]
A lotta times, what I've started to do is use that as a guide 'cause a lotta times, the things you're most afraid to do are the things that you really need to do. That's what helped me the most in these past three/four years in tryna guide myself through my career and life in general.

[Zane Lowe]
Does it get scary at times, though, when you perform or you do something and then—?

[Lil Nas X]
I'm still on a constant journey of that and I'm really gonna need people to bear with me 'cause even a lot of the things I say and feel know, I may not feel the same way in two years.

[Zane Lowe]
You wanna keep your options open, is what you're saying, rather than be boxed in again?

[Lil Nas X]
Yeah. I still don't want that. That's another reason— I want people to look at me more of as someone who's saying, "Do what you want to do, be yourself, but try to respect other people." but don't look at me as this perfect hero who's not gonna make mistakes and should be the voice for everybody or something. No, you're the voice for you.

[Zane Lowe]
The people you've chosen to work with on this record really reflect that and in many respects, they are outliers and outlaws in their own right.

[Lil Nas X]
And that wasn't even on purpose, honestly. That was not on purpose but these people definitely are.

[Zane Lowe]
Doja Cat has been through some challenges and has shown real strength and come through with incredible music, right?

[Lil Nas X]
She is one of my biggest inspirations right now.

[Zane Lowe]
Can we talk a little bit about that? How does she inspire you?

[Lil Nas X]
It first starts with watching the VMAs last year, seeing her out there looking like a ****ing star. It literally made me start going to the gym 'cause I was like, "I wanna get in shape 'cause I wanna start doing crazier, better performances." and I just wanna be in shape in general. And just her music—she's diverse; her videos and her personality is really colorful and pop, and she's funny, she's a fun person. She takes things seriously but doesn't take things seriously, you know what I mean? She takes what she does seriously—you can tell, she puts a lot of effort into everything she does—but she's not going around like, "I am the best. I am the Queen of everything." and, rightfully so, she could say that.

[Zane Lowe]
She's also an internet kid and you talked about, in the beginning—because I was tryna figure out who supported you, where'd you get that support, where'd you find your voice? When you're a divorce kid and you're tryna figure where you fit in the family dynamic and then you don't feel like education's gonna be the place where you have the best time of your life, so where do you go, right? You go online and you develop your voice online. And more than that, you learn how to weaponise it and I wonder—genuine question, even though people talk about "the internet" now, it's almost a cliché—you've used it in a way that is so powerful; you've used it as a marketing tool, you've used it as a communication device; what it means to you. Because, to me, it feels like it's the biggest weapon in your tool outside of, "You're creative."

[Lil Nas X]
I didn't realise how great I had become at doing internet stuff until people started telling me; I was like, "Does everybody not use the internet this way?" You learn so much subconsciously just doing the things that you do on the internet—to push and promote other people, or to defend other people or other groups of people. It's come across as a great tool.

[Zane Lowe]
But the really interesting thing about the internet is it can be seen either way. It can either be seen as a tool for—

[Lil Nas X]
Good.

[Zane Lowe]
—or bad, or it is widely considered now amongst those who are a bit more cynical as an opportunity to market. And that's probably the one area which, people who aren't offended or turned off by your music or your stand or your lifestyle or any of that stuff—the only other area that they sometimes have struggled is they've felt that you exist more as marketing like, "I say these things because it creates the right attention in order for me to get past things." Have you felt that, that there's been some confusion over how much of an artist you truly are versus someone who can actually use the internet to get attention?

[Lil Nas X]
I definitely feel a lot of people see me as like, "Gimme this! Gimme attention! Gimme this! I want all!" but it's more like, I just created art. I am gonna use this for good and I am gonna get people to pay attention to it. I created this, I am gonna work hard to get it out there in every corner of the world and I am gonna be myself while doing that.

[Zane Lowe]
It's such a clear realisation you've seemed to come to and this album's obviously really helped you. I think of a song like "ONE OF ME" being a really important moment. I feel like that's just a beginning and end—"Here! There it all is. Anything you can level at me or have said about me since I became successful, unexpected or not, is in that song." How did it feel to make that song?

[Lil Nas X]
You know what's crazy? That was actually one of the first songs I made in 2019.

[Zane Lowe]
I did think when I was listening, "Well, you've sort of gone past a lot of this stuff." and yet this song still reflects that period.

[Lil Nas X]
It's aged really well because a lot of these things are still said or bumbling around and regardless, I wanted people to know the things I was hearing and the things I was seeing and feeling. Even in that song, those are some of the things I started to feel about myself too, so it's things people are saying to you and things you're throwing on yourself into this one song.

[Zane Lowe]
You dance between the first, second, and third person and the beginning of the song, it feels like you're talking to somebody else.

[Lil Nas X]
It was from all those perspectives.

[Zane Lowe]
Elton on piano on that song... beautiful, fantastic—does exactly what he needs to do on that. What's your relationship like with the single most beautiful, wonderful, influential, supportive artist to "artist" on the planet?

[Lil Nas X]
Me and Elton, we're not super close but he's been so supportive and... come on, Elton John is on my album!

[Zane Lowe]
And just a really powerful voice for the queer community too, and somebody who has done lifetimes upon lifetime upon lifetimes of work—

[Lil Nas X]
Just a star.

[Zane Lowe]
Right? Stepping up. When you eventually came out and made it clear to everybody who hadn't seen the signs, were you surprised that people were shocked? Because I know that your initial reaction was like, "Didn't you figure it out?"

[Lil Nas X]
I knew some people would be shocked because a lot of people, when they hear a song, they maybe look up to the artist and don't get too involved in their life or what they're talking about or their captions or what they're posting on their story, so then they're just like, "Wait, what the ****?" Because there's a lot of songs I like right now and I've seen the artists' face but I have no idea about them outside of that. So that's how it was for people—"Oh, this cowboy... country... wait, huh? How is that possible? 'Boobies'!"

[Zane Lowe]
There are artists before you that came out and made R&B or made hip hop or make music in that framework, who came out and said, "I want you to know who I am—who I really am—not who I 'should' be based on the kind of music that I make and where I stand artistically." and have pushed the boundaries that way and yet it still is divisive amongst music in general whether it's country, hip hop, whatever, that you would come out and be yourself and I wonder how much you feel a responsibility for the community that you're a part of and how much you just wanna live your life and that everyone else figure it out.

[Lil Nas X]
I feel responsibility. I don't know if I wanna say a lot. It's certain things I see in the world that fuel me to go harder or put even more effort or to make sure I'm getting across because I feel like when people come out as gay, it becomes, "Okay, let's santize the hell out of this. Let's make sure it's appropriate and super safe." where they don't do anything that's considered too far, even the things that we see other artists doing. And even to defend ourselves, we have to say, "Straight people have done it first." I feel like we still haven't reached a place where I can do something right now that no straight person has done, that's considered too far, because then it's really too far because no straight person has done it yet, you know what I'm saying?

[Zane Lowe]
Yeah, it makes total sense, and it makes sense in your performances as well because you're right: all you're doing is changing the context of what someone else has done over and over again for generations within their own environment and you're just doing it as it comes naturally for you.

[Lil Nas X]
I'm just tryna point out some hypocrisy.

[Zane Lowe]
Some of the other songs that really stand out for me on the record is "[THATS] WHAT I WANT"—and we danced on this a little bit when we spoke recently about the idea of being able to form functional and strong relationships in a world that is transient and fast. Is that what that song is about—searching for something more meaningful?

[Lil Nas X]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and... yeah, that's what that song is about. I feel like I often, in Hollywood or my life since I got famous, will get into these relationships that will be like shwoop, done, shwoop, done, shwoop—I was like, "Damn, I really want somebody that's gonna wanna make me want this more—"

[Zane Lowe]
—than the other stuff?

[Lil Nas X]
Not any other stuff but want this more in general, enough to incorporate this into my life and wanna spend time outside of my career, and that hasn't happened yet, and a lot of times, I'll be like, "Oh, poor me. I just want somebody to love."

[Zane Lowe]
When you finished the music and started thinking about the artwork and you started thinking about the way you're gonna—

[Lil Nas X]
Do you like the album cover?

[Zane Lowe]
Have you got it? Can you show me?

[Lil Nas X]
Yeah. Right, here is it.

[Zane Lowe]
Wow. That is so vivid. My God, that's unreal. Who did this?

[Lil Nas X]
Charlie Chops. It's from this art called Genesis II. I saw this randomly in this guy who I was dating's dorm room. Wow. This is so beautiful. Look at this!

[Zane Lowe]
It's incredible. It's almost too much to take in. That's the kind of thing you could stare at for a very long period of time and still discover things over and over again.

[Lil Nas X]
It's called Genesis II, right? And Genesis II is like—I read it and it's the final day of God making his work and he's resting and that, for me, it's like, "Okay, I've been making this. I've been creating this. This is the final day and it's out to the world."

[Zane Lowe]
And it does have a spiritual feeling about it.

[Lil Nas X]
That's what this has been for me. This has been a spiritual journey, this album.

[Zane Lowe]
What were some of the ways you were able to enjoy it—not just creating it but enjoy it? How did you make a world for yourself? There were great producers and people you collaborated with. What was important? What were the constants about making this record that made you feel safe?

[Lil Nas X]
I was really just making music. A lot of things would start just melody runs. We're just doing a bunch of different melodies over an instrumental or a loop that I'm in love with, or liking a lot, and seeing, "Okay, where can we take this?" and then from there, with just the melodies, I was like, "I already know what this song is about. Let me fill in these with words." and it worked almost every time, and we chopped down more and more and more until I got the ones I felt were the most important for the album.

[Zane Lowe]
How many songs, though? How many ideas—like, estimate, round up—do you reckon you have for this record?

[Lil Nas X]
Maybe, like, almost a hundred. What do you think, Denz?

{Zane Lowe offers Take a Daytrip to join the interview, which is accepted. They introduce themselves to Zane Lowe.}

[Zane Lowe]
Congrats on finding the most comfortable wood cabin in the Hollywood Hills.

[Denzel Baptiste]
Thank you.

[Zane Lowe]
This is a nice spot.

[David Biral]
It was a process but we found it.

[Zane Lowe]
I was talking to somebody—I can't remember who it was, an artist—the idea of the residential studio, right? Living in a place where you create is the dream but it took decades for people to figure it out. Now, technology affords you to do it. How did you guys make this a process where it was manageable? Did you work all day, all night sometimes? Did you work within timeframes? What's your process of actually creating together?

[Denzel Baptiste]
The real process started after the pandemic when there were no more studios and then that was the only way to really do it. Our studio was in New York and we're from New York and going back and forth so we didn't have something out here and then Nas called us one night and was like, "Alright, we're gonna just make this album right now." It's like, "It's a pandemic. How are we gonna do it?" and then he just got an Airbnb and we took all the equipment that we had, shipped some stuff out from New York, brought it all over here and then we set up in a house. And Nas was staying there and we would come every morning—every day like it was a job.

[Zane Lowe]
Yeah, like a job. It's funny you say that because people often try to separate the idea of "art" and "job" but it is—you need to put the hours in. It's like anything else. How did you find California, being New Yorkers?

[David Biral]
Especially now, we truly love working out here and I think, at least what we've been able to find in terms of space. When we were working New York, it was a small little basement studio in SoHo.

[Lil Nas X]
It was a great place. It's where we made "Rodeo".

[David Biral]
We even finished "Panini" there.

[Zane Lowe]
Most producers or artists I've know, for two or three albums, they'll be like, "I need to get back to that tiny room. There's something magic about that room." You've obviously moved around a little bit. Are you in a different zone now where you like making music in different spaces?

[Denzel Baptiste]
Yes. I would say the space is almost the most important, if not one of the most important things in the process because there's so many factors that can help or hurt the creation, so having our own space and always having a place that we're comfortable with and the distractions fall away—like in here—it changes everything.

[Zane Lowe]
I feel like comfort was a really important of this process for you. One of the things that keeps coming up in our conversation is wanting to have a safe space to create and not feel all of that bull**** that comes with success and expections and everything else. Did you recognise him going through that process while you were making this record, tryna find his authentic voice and not be re-affected by the success of "Old Town Road" and whatnot?

[David Biral]
Yeah. When we first met, it was almost like a speed-dating session. We all walked into the room and magically made "Panini" first time meeting but from there, we truly spent enough time together where it has involved more than just being friends. I look at Nas and I look at Denzel as like my brothers and through this process, we've been making music together every single day since the start of the pandemic. Through these records, we're learning about one another and it's really been a magical experience, being able to live that with people that I truly call family, and how far we've come just from the first day meeting on "Panini" to creating a whole album together.

[Zane Lowe]
As soon as you guys sat down, I could feel you were relaxed and feel really good around the guys—it's obviously a really strong bond you have, and you keep your producers and collaborators tight, right? There's not too many people on the record aside from these two.

[Lil Nas X]
It's mostly Daytrip, a few with John Cunningham, Nick Mira's on one...

[Denzel Baptiste]
Omer.

[Lil Nas X]
Yeah, Omer's on a lot of these. Omer's been a great help.

[Zane Lowe]
I was surprised to see Kanye's credit. What's his role on "INDUSTRY BABY"?

[Lil Nas X]
We'd been working on the song for a year and I went in to meet Kanye and he was super cool. He played me his album—well, he's played everybody his album now—

[Zane Lowe]
But you got an earlier rendition of Donda.

[Lil Nas X]
Yeah. Really talented man. And I played him some of my songs that I had been working on. He's like, he could add something to "INDUSTRY BABY" and he added some horns and stuff, right?

[David Biral]
Yeah. He really helped beef up the horn section a lot.

[Lil Nas X]
Yeah, he beefed that up a lot. And just the acknowledgement from him or him even adding himself to that—that's a great look for all of us so we're really thankful for that.

[Zane Lowe]
It's cool. Like I said, I got a surprise because I'm used to you working with people that it feels like friendships and family and, "Oh, I really need these people around me to truly understand what it is I'm trying to say." What do you love about working with Daytrip, just to keep it incredibly awkward while I sit on the couch?

[Lil Nas X]
They're always able to do something new, or, "Oh, I don't know about this but let's go through with it anyway." A lot of times, I've been in sessions and when producers aren't feeling it, they will check out completely, but [Daytrip'll] stay in and then it could be something that isn't even that great and then it'll be super ****ing hot. I feel like that's the best thing. Also, they're just great people. We've grown to know each other on a deeper level than, "Okay, let's make a song. Bye."

[David Biral]
From our end too, being able to make so many songs in different genres. Really, we step in and everything is, "We're fearless."

[Zane Lowe]
That's one of the things I love about this record, is like I mentioned some of the songs before, even your vocal performance on—is it "[LIFE AFTER] SALEM"?—when you really lay it on the line, that's like proto-early-'90s grunge to me in a really weird way. I know you love music, right?

[Lil Nas X]
I ****ing love music.

[Zane Lowe]
Beyond even the music you make and the genre you would mistakenly put into, I think we're all figuring out now that it goes way beyond any genre for you.

[Lil Nas X]
I just love the art of creating music. That's why I'm never trying to target anyone specifically. Of course I know songs that will gravitate to people more but I felt it was really important to put a "[LIFE AFTER] SALEM" or an "AM I DREAMING" or a "VOID" on this album for that very reason.

[Zane Lowe]
I've always loved what would be considered the weirder side of what you do, at least in the beginning. We've talked about that on 7 and I'd be like, "Yo, that is the one. Like, the fast, crazy, strange one." and also vocally, it should be acknowledged in this conversation as we try to collect some thoughts to frame this era, that vocally, there are some incredible performances. You going toe-to-toe with Miley Cyrus—she's one of the pre-eminent female vocalists of our time and there's nothing she can't sing.

[Lil Nas X]
She's incredible.

[Zane Lowe]
Especially after some of the other songs. What was the hardest vocal for you to do?

[Lil Nas X]
It probably was "[LIFE AFTER] SALEM" now that you say that.

[Zane Lowe]
And at the end of "AM I DREAMING"?

[Lil Nas X]
Yeah. That was hard too. The end of "AM I DREAMING" and that. And just the more falsetto-y parts. Especially doing those a million times.

[Zane Lowe]
That's songwriting at a different level. That's why I'm so happy to finish record as a fan because I'm like, "Oh, that's where you're going?"

[David Biral]
That was one of the early, early, early ones.

[Lil Nas X]
One of the very first ones.

[Denzel Baptiste]
Yeah, super early ones. Before we were finishing any songs and it was sitting there for a long time.

[Lil Nas X]
And it was like, "You know what? Let's go back to this and finish it."

[Zane Lowe]
You have this crazy perspective because I try to put it into context from a conversationalist point of view which is trying to get from the outside inside in an hour, but you've been working with him now for such a long time that you must see in him things he doesn't even see in himself at times and look to each other and go, "****! Like, I don't even think he knows where he's going." Does that ring true?

[Denzel Baptiste]
A hundred per cent. Which is crazy because our first session where we did "Panini"—Nas only made a certain number of songs before. David and I went to a school for music and we've been studying music for our whole lives and we know these weird intricacies of how to do this, how to do that. In our first session, we have the outline of "Panini" and then Nas sitting there for what was an hour or two, just thinking and not really saying anything, and me and David are like, "You gonna jump in, bro?" And then he's like, "Okay, take this. Move this here. Cut this in half. Move this in the intro. Take this last part. Move it here." And I'm doing it and we're like, "Okay." and then we look at it and it's like, "Oh, ****. He just took the outro, made it the intro. Made a pre-chorus because there wasn't a pre-chorus. Doubled the chorus here." and doing all these things that were like, if you were to arrange a song and be a master song-arranger or producer, that's what he would do based on where he was going vocally with it.

[Zane Lowe]
And it's all instinct for him.

[Denzel Baptiste]
All intuition and then as we go, it gets crazier and crazier where he's like, "Something's wrong with that vocal." and we go in the vocal chain; it's one plug-in—the EQ is, like, 2db off—

[Zane Lowe]
But this is awesome. This is the **** I wanted to get to because you're too humble or... {humorously} too... stupid—nah, I'm joking.

{everyone laughs}

[Lil Nas X]
Has to be the trailer for this video.

[Zane Lowe]
—to acknowledge because the thing is, what this album's really gonna achieve, and hopefully this conversation will help, is to really establish that this isn't just some weird freakshow pop moment in time where you had a big hit and now you've had these moments that either turn people on or turn people off. That there's a real lifetime ahead of you, a real journey, so get on board or don't but this is it, right? This is what you do and this is it and this matters. This **** matters. And I think, for two people like yourselves, you're coming from a different place—you're coming from New York—you're coming from working with different kinds of artists. It must have been really rewarding for you to be a part of this project, especially when I'm sure you've had friends of yours or other artists go, "Oh, you're working with him?" Has that happened? Like, "Huh." because of the perception of it versus the reality of what you know? Has that happened?

[David Biral]
We've definitely, obviously even recently seen people say things on the internet. For us—you know, we know Nas—

[Zane Lowe]
Exactly. You know what it means in the big picture, in the long term.

[David Biral]
And seeing those kinds of things is really hurtful when you know who this person is and why he's capable of the things that he's done for me, he's done for Denzel—even in our personal lives. This is one of the most amazing human beings I—

[Lil Nas X]
{humorously} Stop, please! That's enough!

[David Biral]
And I mean that, you know? You truly are one of the greatest human beings that I've had the pleasure of meeting in my entire life. And because of Nas and because of Denzel and because of what we've been able to do together, all our lives have changed to such an exciting place.

[Zane Lowe]
It's awesome. When we spoke a couple of weeks back, and I'd hope we would get a chance to talk, I wanted to get this place where we could get beyond all of the internet-crazy and all of the misconceptions and whatnot and hopefully we got there. And hopefully there'll be more conversations to come, dude, because I feel like you're going, you're not gonna stop. This is your life now, right?

[Lil Nas X]
This is my life. Just getting started.

[Denzel Baptiste]
Just getting started.

[Lil Nas X]
Really are. Really are.