Frank Ocean: What do you think, or suppose, was before everything?

Christopher Chassol: (laughs) So basically you're asking me… what I think? I think everything is possible. I think it can be whatever you decide to be; whatever you choose.

FO: Chris, what the fuck are you talking about? you don't understand the question.

CC: The question is what do I think there was before the Big Bang. So I think you can decide whatever you want because we have no clue. We are not astrophysicists; they get religious at the end.

Om'Mas Keith: And this is why there will always be a God principle. When you get to the point where you can't explain everything, the human soul needs to find something because we can't accept not knowing. I'm a scientist. Everything I fuck with has been proven. That's like everything in my life.

CC: Really? Proven?

OK: Right, maths and science. It's like, this shit is real! Only in business and creating though. In love there's no rules. In love, you'll never know anything. Business can definitely know things. You can look at statistics in love and all that shit too, but you'll always derive the fact that you'll never be able to predict anything. I think in business you can use models to predict outcomes. More so that in love.

FO: Who have you guys gotten the best commentary on yourselves from? Has it been your enemies or your loved ones?

CC: Well it's my girl, of course. I do music to please girls, you know? At the beginning you do it for her to love me, because I want to shine in front of her.

OK: Like a diamond.

CC: I'm doing music for her to feel proud of me.

FO: You know that song, "shine bright like a diamond?" You don't know that song?

CC: No, it's from a movie? I don't know? Maybe, maybe—it's a girl? Like Miley Cyrus? I don't know, I'm not an entertainer.
OK: My mother used to always say weird shit to us, basically saying like we were a very select group of people in the hood who had some consciousness and were trying to get out. And she would always make those weird statements to reinforce that, I don't even want to repeat what she said because it doesn't sound good. Basically, telling me that I should rise above what was going on in the neighbourhood. To this day, just how ambiguous your parents or elders around you can be, my mother, my grandmother, they'd always say stuff like 'you're from here, but you're not of here.' Just a repeated mantra, always. 'Each one, teach one.' so when I talk to my mom it's all these paraphrases and lessons. When I talk to my grandmother, it's always this wisdom. Everybody older than me are the ones who really give me the commentary as I move forward.

CC: When we were talking, I was thinking of echoes in your life or phrases that people say when you are young… phrases that stay. Short ones that constitute your vision. There was one guy, I was 20 and in a band. I was good, but I was not super good. The guy was and older guy in a bar. He said, 'Yeah, pretty good, your concert, but you don't have the sound.' I was really pissed off. I knew he was right and this phrase—I don't even know who this guy is, I met him ten seconds—but this phrase stayed to remind me that I'm not there.

OK: I had one guy do that. This is a pivotal moment in my beat-making life. I was 16, I made these beasts and prepared them for this gentleman called Weldon Irvine who was a famous jazz musician. He came to my house, listened to my beats, and I knew they were great but he shot me down, like 'yeah they're a little busy bro.' It was my first shit of honesty that prepared me for what was going to come for the rest of my life. I always go back to that one scenario of people having that one opinion. You can let it destroy you, you have to add it to your repertoire and think about it. When he said that, I thought to myself, maybe there's a way to do things simple. I'm still on a quest for that to this day in my life, that level of simplicity, because of this interaction with Weldon.

FO: When I used to sing when I was younger, my mom would be like, 'stop hollering!' It used to make me all self-conscious about how I sounded, like my tone of voice or how loud I was, and I didn't want to sound like I was dying and shit. And then I discovered Prince at my mom's friend Jheri's house, I mean she used to have him on like every day and I honestly didn't pay attention at first but I vividly remember the first time I heard 'Beautiful Ones' and this grown man singing for his life. Immediately I remember it clicking like, 'oh, it's okay to holler and scream and everything. Like, express yourself kid… go off! So yeah, Prince basically made it all okay. (laughter) And I mean there was other stuff like my grandfather always correcting my speech, which was a regular thing. But for some reason I remember I was picking up a habit of saying, 'yes, indeed.' And like really stretching it out too which sounded country as hell. I think I was picking it up from my older twin cousins or whatever and he wasn't having it, at all. Low-key I think he's the reason why I never picked up a strong New Orleans accent for real, which I kind of wish I did. I guess I could turn it on if I tried to but yea in general I probably just sound like I'm from anywhere in America.

OK: Talking like black people, what does it mean?

FO: Yeah, I heard that growing up sometimes. 'Oh, you talk white.' But you know what it means though.

OK: In the context that I grew up when I was told to talk white it was because I took the time to make sure everybody understood every word and used big words.

CC: It's about putting the white guy on the side of the intellect and putting the black guy on the side of the intuitive, primitive things. 'Oh, his language swings.' (snaps fingers). 'It's close to dance. Close to the animals, to nature!' The white guys speaks clearly like the brain. It's doing this when people say 'talking like white people' and 'talking like black people.' It's so stupid.

OK: That's at the core. So why are people still doing that right now? Still! In fifth grade saying to another kid, 'Why you talk black?' Why you talk white? Wigger!'

FO: True. But it's all changing all the time. There'll be new cultures that collide like this in the future and this will be old news.

OK: Do you like being alone?

CC: Yeah, I love it.

OK: I hate being alone. I love to have so many people around me, much as I can. I like to have people sleeping in my house.
CC: I like my toilet. I need my space.

OK: No, everything's separate. You can't use my toilet. (laughs) I like an environment where I'm in my world and there are people in the house, I don't know what it's about, but I like having people around me. I like entourage. I think I'm going to have a big entourage, really big.

FO: I'm not that way.

OK: You can be alone, huh?

FO: Yeah. I can be alone. But remember I used to have a bunch of people around my house all the time. All the time.

OK: Trusted crew, though?

FO: Eh, some randoms too.

CC: And people staying over and they wouldn't leave?

FO: Some people wouldn't leave, they'd just be there.

CC: So you're like 'so, so…' (claps hands on knees) 'What are we doing?'

OK: Do people do this at your flat?

CC: Yeah, they stay because the place is good. So I'm like 'So so so… I have to work… blah blah blah.' They won't leave! Being alone is good. With this, the invention of the iPod, it changed everything. You have all things, all of this music everywhere. The Proustian feeling, the feeling of nostalgia, you can bring nostalgia in a place where you have never experienced it before. You had Walkmans but the iPod changed everything.

OK: Data revival. That's what brings those feelings. Seeing it, it gives you unlimited… it's like fucking drugs, man.
CC: I love good nostalgia. Nostalgia that goes for a while. It's crazy when music is so powerful. It can still be technical and poetic, like 'I know which chord makes me feel about Wednesday afternoon in 1983.' Think like that. You could almost make an Excel document about it.

OK: Take for instance, every time I hear 'Don't Forget About Me' from the Breakfast Club. Whenever I immediately hear that song, I get this immediate image of being; because the only time I saw this movie was on WPIX11 [news] in syndication and it would come on Saturdays once every three months or something like that… but I always remember catching it at home on a Saturday, 11 years old. It takes me right back to that time, every time.

Zing Tseng: Do you think people are nostalgic these days?

OK: I don't know.

CC: No, I don't think so.

OK: But wait, wouldn't the amount of data that these people are pulling completely say yes?

CC: I don't know if you've read Marcel Proust? Proust is very famous. You know madeleines des Proust, the little cakes? Wherever he's eating this cake, it brings him back to his old aunt. In French literature, it's a landmark. Once you read this, you say: 'Oooh ok, I understand this feeling of nostalgia.' Like when you see Kubrick's 2001, you say, 'Aaah ok, I understand what is cinema.' Landmark works of art.

OK: Yeah, landmark works of art at the time you experienced them at an earlier stage of your life. Hearing and seeing it again triggers the whole experience.

CC: I have one wish. When it's when we are in 2070, and there's a guy who's 15 years old, whatever the device is that he's listening to music and watching movies on. He finds a piece that I did now and he says, 'Wow, I found this fucked up thing!' and wants to share it with his friends, you know?

OK: Maybe there's so much worthless information and whack art that there is going to be less nostalgia because there's just this constant feeding. Maybe the whole concept of nostalgia is going to end, maybe people are just going to be living in this moment the whole time, never looking back because of short attention spans.

FO: I was reading Bruce Sterling and he was talking about all the dead media. He proposed a 'Dead Media Handbook' that was all about media over the years that just went extinct. If that were to happen to the internet the same way it's happened to books…

CC: That data is going to die anyway, eventually. Everything is going to die.

OK: Well theoretically it could continue forever, if they continued to back it up.

CC: Theoretically it will end.

FO: At what point in your life did that occur to you? That all things come to an end?

OK: When did I know it could be all over? It was probably the scariest moment of my life, when I realised that I was gonna die one day. I was really young. I was seven or eight. The first person I ever knew who died was my grandmother. When I got the announcement, I was really young and I started having dreams about dying. They were horrifying. I know I was between the age of seven and ten. Right around the age of seven or ten, I was very rudely awakened to the concept of life and death and it scared the shit out of me.

CC: I told you my parents died in a plane crash and I took the plane a lot. Whenever there is turbulence on the plane, even with that, I don't think it's possible that something will happen to me. I don't think I'm going to die. I know it's going to happen, but I cannot see it, you know?

FO: Going to the 'long line,' this idea that humans are on a path to be like that which created all things…

OK: Like God?

FO: Exactly. So is that something you agree with?

CC: No, I think…

FO: Let me rephrase that. Do you think that the chain reaction that was set off was set off so that something could be created that could also set off a chain reaction of its own?

CC: I really think that since I have no clue, everything is possible. It can be something of a wheel and it can be for no reason at all. Everything is possible.

OK: Do you feel like a boss?

CC: No, of course not. I feel like the leader, but not like a boss. For example when Frank calls me, I'm at his service, you know? He's the leader, not the boss. You're not my boss, you're the leader of your own stuff and I'm at your service.

FO: When you asked me that, I'd say yeah I'm a leader and a follower sometimes, depends on the scenario. I started off in a service position, sort of. 'I'll come to this session and help you with this project' and I did that for years. But I feel like a boss and leader are synonyms.

CC: The leader is opening the way for the path. And sometimes he goes on the side to lead the people, but he's showing the way. The boss is saying 'Everyone go there!'

OK: Do you ever feel like the head of an enterprise? That's what I really meant by boss.

CC: Now I'm starting to feel like… my name, I'm doing stuff, I have a small team, it's more a family team but I'm at the center of the thing because it's my work.

FO: I feel like you skirting off it. I feel like it's different, it's in tiers. If there was a situation where you need something to happen and you're not taking no for an answer, then you are saying 'Go here and do that, and if you don't go here and do that then somebody else has to go there and do it because things need to get done.'

OK: That's boss shit. That's leadership. That's why they're so interchangeable.

CC: But leadership is a better word.

OK: We're just dealing with semantics now. 'Boss' implies transaction. 'Leader' can lead in love. 'I lead in love.'

FO: 'I lead the lead household.' 'I lead a movement.' Yeah, I'm not the boss of a movement. Boss implies business.

CC: You see, four flutes, but there's one on top. The one that is the higher note, but the one you hear the most. Take the orchestra, you have the bassist downstairs, the percussion, piano, you have the horns, then you have the wood, and at the top of the orchestra you have the piccolo. The smallest instrument (whistles) and the loudest one, also! It makes a lot of noise. It's the highest note that leads the music. But at the same time you could say the same thing about the bass. The bass is the root. But the melody leads the way and the bass makes a good highway. It's funny, this thing of leading.

OK: That's just one way of looking at it. If you ask Stanley Clarke and he starts playing up here (gestures high), now he's in charge.

CC: No, but he always goes back there. He's not going to play a whole song upstairs, because the role of the bass would be denied. The roots needs to be here.

OK: What if you don't need a root. What do you think about that?

CC: You've said several times, 'as black Americans descending from Africa…' me, I know that I come from Africa via the West Indies but I grew up in Paris. The roots, yes they are important but in fact I think that the truth is that they are not always so important. It's society that makes it so important. I cannot say 'no no I don't know my past' but the truth is I can live a life without caring about those questions.

OK: A happy life without dealing with social commentary? Or bothering yourself with it?

CC: Yeah.

OK: Especially if you're living a positive life. But then what are you giving back? Or do you need to give back?

CC: Yeah, you need to give through hard work.

FO: I was going to ask you about entertainers. Are you an entertainer?

CC: I realize that I'm becoming more and more an entertainer because I'm doing more live performances. It was not like that before. I was much more into film scoring, like a craftsman. I do a lot of live performance and I know that I feel good onstage. Naturally, you give pleasure to people by honestly enjoying what you're doing. This is entertaining, I think. It's not about saying a lot of jokes.

OK: I black out, nobody can talk to me, but I get onstage it's bliss.

FO: Yeah. I get that. For me, if it's all falling correct it's euphoric on stage.

CC: But going onstage and singing is a completely different thing to going onstage and playing an instrument. I never went onstage and sang something. I think it's so much different because it's like you're naked, no?

FO: Yeah. I think it's going onstage and playing a different instrument.

CC: Do you think there are bad connotations about being an entertainer? This is why you asked the question, no? In France, entertainment has a very bad connotation. When we say 'this is a movie for entertainment…' it doesn't have any sense, there's no message.

FO: but then we gotta go into the semantics game again, don't we? I think you gotta go back to what it means to entertain.

OK: We all know that people like Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin considered themselves entertainers.

FO: Yeah, very serious guys. Like Stevie Wonder is an entertainer, in some people's books.

OK: I want to know what he is in his own books, though. That would be interesting to see.

CC: He's a composer.

FO: I think if you're onstage and interacting with the crowd that's not the same as working in a studio like this, recording music and putting it out as an object. Being in front of a live audience, or even on TV like Oprah or as a talk show pundit is entertainment—the news is entertainment—the clashes between people, the sensationalising nothingness that happens on Fox News or whatever, all entertainment. Those people in that situation are entertainers.

OK: Cedric the Entertainer. He's telling you what he is.

FO: Comedians, a hundred percent. Entertainment and enjoyment.

CC: It's a bad word.

OK: It's just a mindfuck, man.

FO: It's not bad though. I don't know man.

CC: But we have to find another word, because this word is fucked up.

OK: The thing is the labelling, on the whole, is a problem. Even when it's good or when people think they're doing good by applying a label. For you that day, it could be bad.

FO: I feel it. (laughs)

FO: If you had to pick, would you rather make music on a computer for the rest of your life or play an analogue instrument for the rest of your life?

CC: Oh, computer. The kids today, they stopped learning handwriting and they will go on their iPad to type. It's normal, you know? We shouldn't be nostalgic about handwriting because it's only a tool. I prefer to picture myself using computers rather than analogue stuff because it would be like a passé guy, a guy who likes the past for bad reasons. Vintage things because…

OK: Because they're real?

CC: No man, the computer is real.

OK: An analogue instrument. I'm going to choose the analogue instrument. Definitely play an instrument over a computer.

CC: That was not the question. Analogue versus computer. It's not instrument.

FO: Maybe a 'real' instrument.

OK: A real instrument is based on analogue circuitry that reproduces sound versus an actual representation of sound.

CC: I don't care. I prefer to use the computer…

OK: Because then you can watch porn on it.

CC: Before I was a teenager I couldn't understand the purpose of a love song. Why do a love song? I thought it was pointless.

OK: I can't write 'em. I can't write 'em without a crew. It's hard for me to think about it. The premise is to write a love song? It always ends up being something freaky. (laughs) Tenderness.

FO: What's the sweetest love song you've written in your life?

OK: I think the sweetest love song I've ever written would be 'Maxine,' John Legend. That's the only sweet song I ever wrote, as far as penning lyrics, as far as participating actively in penning lyrics. I need sometimes, because otherwise I'll start guidance then I got you, then we got freaky in the boat, in the bathroom.' It'll be like 'ohh blissful moment, then we got freaky.'

CC: I wrote a song for my parents, but not a song—more like a piece. It was a moment, it's called 'The Bears.' It's with the horns, you know the horn is so mellow and enveloping. Four horns, like (sings two mellow tones) a family surrounding, you know?

OK: That's ill, that's Bernini. You can take music and describe what it's doing. Here's what should be doing to you, implied, suggested to your listener.

CC: I don't want to throw a big debate, but I want to have your opinion: is there black music?

FO: There's music that was pioneered by black people. Loads of music that was pioneered
by black people but I don't think after they pioneered it, it's theirs anymore.

CC: There's no label like this in the Grammys?

OK: Yeah, it's called urban and R&B because white people can make black music too.

CC: There's a scene in 12 Years A Slave where they bury someone and they start to sing. It could have been really lame, but it was really a success I think. You understand the roots of blues, how it was born. They start to sing, it grows and it's blues song. To sing suffering. I think it was really, really well shot. If another guy would have shot that it could have been a disaster.

OK: What's the musical correlation there?

CC: Rhythm and blues, because you said rhythm and blues. Black music is rhythm and blues (makes drumming sounds).

OK: Firstly it's got rhythm. Start with the rhythm.

CC: No drums in classical music.

OK: Only Timpanis. Only percussion. Pitch percussion, is that right?

FO: I've heard this more than once. When I play any chord that's particularly dense, someone will say it's jazz. Or if something's just dissonant or ambiguous, 'Oh, it's jazzy.' No.

CC: Jazz is sophisticated chord grammar. Harmony grammar. It's like a very evolved language, musically speaking. Jazz is so high. The grammar of harmonics is very developed. That's why.

OK: Jazz is one of those things when separated, starts to be better.

CC: It's classical music for black people.

OK: It's the American classic. Now it's regarded as the only classical American art form. The first classical American art form, that's what it's regarded as. That was the fucking first classical art form that came from the new country. To that extent, it's made by black people but the word 'black' is so bad, I hate that word for music. 'Black music.'

CC: Because we are black, but we are three different guys.

FO: But yet major labels have what's called the 'Head of Black Music.'

OK: Oh no, they don't use that term. It's 'urban.'

FO: Yes, they do.

CC: Or the term 'World music.' Like there is the Western world, and there's all the other 'Ethnic music!'

FO: We have the pop song of the year that's popular with, the world. And then we have 'world music.'

CC: Fuck, that's crazy.

OK: Really, I don't think artists should care about any of that stuff. Unless they really want to. Any artist who cares about a Grammy should actively be around and be a voice in the organisation that they're participating in. That's really all I gotta say about it. I think anyone at the point where you want something, you're a participant. If you don't want it, then it don't matter. None of these accolades actually matter.

FO: I have better things to do than sit on a Grammy board. But I think they matter because the platform is respected and the decisions made affect how an artist or their work might be perceived, you know? So they should try to get it right.

OK: If you're happy, that's all I was saying. They do matter. They are strategic milestones. This is the entertainment industry, bro.

FO: True, there goes that word again. (laughs)

CC: Are you into competition? Because I think you are. When we talked in LA, there was a night we talked a lot and you were talking about stuff… you have two separate minds I think. There's something ambivalent about you. There were a few times where I told myself 'Oh he's into competition.' Aren't you?

FO: No. I'm a magic carpet guy. I'm on an island. (laughs)

OK: Are you competitive?

CC: I guess so. I want all the girls to like me more than all the other guys. So I have to do the best music possible for the girls to be in love with me more and not… the white guy (laughs).

OK: Learn about the yoni.

FO: What's the yoni?

OK: The vagina.

FO: What's that?—no I'm just kidding. (everybody laughs)

CC: I was really inside it one day, and I had this illumination: this is exactly where I should be, this is where I come from, this is where I want to go back, you know?

FO: I used to watch Channel 55 at a certain hour, they would show the pornos. It was pay per view. It would be like fuzzy screen. I would watch the screen just waiting to get like a clear moment. That was my only porn access. Even when the Internet came out, I was in the AOL kids environment, so I couldn't get onto the main browser. I didn't even think of the Internet like that at that point.

OK: I didn't have pornographic access till 1997. The Internet I remember exactly when it happened, I had an AOL account and I moved to Harlem. (mimes dial-up sound)

CC: You've seen Steve McQueen's 'Shame?' It's a fucking good movie I was thinking about it before when we were talking about Tarantino, because in the same year we had 12 Years A Slave and Tarantino, who was saying the same thing but completely differently. It was really interesting. In Shame, this guy is a sex addict and his computer is so dirty.

ZT: My friend has a theory that people who were brought up without the internet make better lovers. You guys grew up without the Internet…

OK: 'I'm a super lover. Oww, something wrong with me!' That's a song… I identify with that. (laughs)

FO: Do you find money sexy?

CC: No, not at all. Money is dirty. Even the physical thing is dirty, because it goes from hand to hand. It's a dirty thing. I like it because it buys freedom, but you should know when to stop.

OK: Are you into socialism?

CC: Me? I think so, yeah. I think I care. I care about people who are weak.

OK: Money sexy, money dirty. Money is such an unnatural demonstration. We're talking about nature. I think it goes against nature.

CC: Barter. Exchanging things. I give you this and you give me that.

OK: My mother's a socialist. She believed in welfare. She believe in it to the extent that she made the decision that in addition to whatever she was going to do musically, she was going to use the system in place to ensure my success and forward movement. So she used socialism. So it's kind of a weird topic. I'm in my mind, kind of like this crazy capitalist. It's ultimately maybe what I strive to be in my daily life, coming from a real socialist environment but I like socialism. I like that maybe only through hard work and true, measurable work can you excel, as opposed to trickery.

FO: So money is not sexy and socialism is cool?

CC: Money to me, it's something I want to have not to think about. I want to have it and not think about it.

FO: So having a billion dollars, no good.

CC: Yeah it can be good if you're doing good things with it. And if you're not obsessed with it but if you're obsessed and you want always more, that's a bad thing.

OK: What sexy to you? Does it only pertain to women? Meaning that's why you can't even equate it to money? Or no?

CC: Sexy I associate with glamour, things like that.

OK: Money by all means can be so sexy. Even thinking about bathing in coins, I've always had this dream of being Duck McQuack or whatever the duck—Scrooge McDuck—and he dives into his gold pond of gold coins and swims in it… I've always dreamed of doing it.

CC: Money, it's a good thing to buy your freedom. You want to do something that is not commercial, that is your own thing, you need time. You need to buy this time. You need not to be doing a job that you don't want to do, to go to your work, to do what you want to do. So you need to earn this money that allows you to eat and everything.

OK: Just like technology, you've accepted technology, you've accepted you're in the system. You're in it to win it.

CC: To win it, it's like I'm sure that I did the best that I could. That's it, and I win.

OK: In it to win it means money for me. In it to win it, baby.

CC: It's so obvious, but people who are the richest are not the happiest. It's such an obvious idea but it's true.

FO: You ever been robbed, Om'Mas?

OK: Yes, I was robbed. So scary. I was robbed on a crowded train. I had a gold ring, not too unlike the one you're wearing (to Frank). I was wearing it on my pinky. As I was sitting down, a Puerto Rican dude sat down on the train right next to me and on the crowded train he whispered into my ear—I was in my freshman year at high school—he pulled out a razor blade and whispered, 'I'm going to slice your whole face up, give me your ring, just be cool.' It was like, wow this is really happening in front of everybody?

CC: That is really nasty.

OK: He just took my damn ring. And my mom was like 'no not my gold ring!.' Aww, mom I'm so sorry.

CC: Have you ever been robbed, Chris?

CC: I tell you, I've a good sense of feeling when it's going to be bad, you know? And what I do is I leave. I'm not interested in seeing those low things. I don't even like looking. I can really feel when it's going to go bad, and I'm not around anymore when it starts. Really I don't. I'm sure I won't like that feeling. I've had a few discussions with skinheads sometimes and it was tense. 'Hey, you n***a, I don't like you, blah blah blah.' Okay, okay why, but why?

FO: I have friends like that, who are exactly like that. Almost like ego management, maybe. It's a little bit of a few things. It's a lot of common sense and awareness. It's also not letting your ego exacerbate the problem.

CC: Yeah I don't care. I don't care about the ego for that kind of thing. For instance, I'm in a car with my girlfriend and there's someone who's doing something insulting and if I answer to the guy, something like (puts macho voice on) 'Hey, what's with you?!' I would see the look on her face. I would see that she thinks, 'This is my guy? Being the macho guy?' She would think it's so lame.

OK: Some bitches love that shit.

FO: I admire that quality. I wish I was more like that. My reflexes are not to be like that. My reflexes are different.

CC: But you never know, you could be beaten to death.

FO: I've had a guy come up to me and put a pistol to my sternum and ask me to run my 7D. And I was like, 'Man I haven't got my photos off my fucking camera, you can't have my camera.' He didn't shoot me, he ran down the alley and got in his car. Honest to God, on my dog's life. But after the fact I was like, 'Yo that's fucking—he could have just shot you in the torso and killed you over this fucking camera.' But in the moment, I don't know what it is, but I just think people think differently. They have different impulses.

CC: Fear, I don't show fear. When you show f ear, they get on you. I show disinterest. I'm not interested in having an argument.

FO: Do you think there'll ever be a black Kim Kardashian? Do you think there is a black Kim Kardashian?

OK: Let me see if there ever was one.

CC: Josephine Baker?

OK: Hell no.

CC: What is she, Kim Kardashian? I told you, it depresses me to think of those kinds of people.

OK: I think she's a famous entertainer.

CC: Oprah Winfrey? I don't know.

OK: Frank Sinatra is a famous entertainer. How can I put those two together? How dare I? No, I'm just saying that you just gotta accept that it sounds wrong, but it's right though. They're both financially successful entertainers. You gotta make a truthful statement. What is she? She's a financially successful entertainer. That doesn't leave any room to dispel the truth about what she is. What else is she, I don't know, but to me that's what she is.

FO: 100%. In that case, in those terms under that label there's a lot of black Kim Kardashians. Like Oprah's a black Kim Kardashian.

CC: She's working on nothingness. Her material is nothingness.

OK: What about Oprah's material? Somethingness?

CC: I think she's working on low, cheap emotions. Her money comes from cheap emotions exploited to the bone.

OK: Is that what the evangelical church is as well? Would you not compare Oprah Winfrey to an evangelical minister?

FO: They're dealing with human emotion.

OK: So is Oprah dealing with human emotion?

CC: She's making too much money… it doesn't feel right.

FO: If you had the opportunity to go back in time 60 years and not know anything about the present, about any of the advances made or anything like that, but be promised a life of peace and happiness or go back 60 years with all of today's knowledge but be subject to your environment. Which do you choose?

CC: I prefer to know what I know now. It would be fun. It would be awesome.

OK: 'Cause you could make so much, you'd just be rich.

CC: No, I would write (sings) 'Too hot, too hot,' that song. I'd write all the songs.

OK: Oh, that's fucked up. A day before.

CC: No, way before.

OK: That could backfire. You might have to knock Stevie out. Circumstances could not be right.

CC: I'd write all the songs off West Side Story. (sings) 'Maria, Maria…' by Christophe Chassol.

OK: That a be so plagiaristically delicious. The easiest job on earth. Yo, but that's the 'Back to the Future' shit. Biff, when he went back and did the gambling and he became big and had the building and everything. That shit ain't never going to happen.

FO: Well, they say anything's possible.

CC: And everything's the same day, like in Groundhog Day.

OK: How long would it take before you started blowing your head off?

CC: But he does it! It doesn't work. There's the whole sequence where he decides in different ways, and he still wakes up at 6am.

FO: It does not work. He has the same day over and over again… some days I feel like I could go through a bunch of times and it's all good cause you can always have a new day, you just do different shit.

CC: Yeah, but it depends on… other people and if they are doing the same thing.

FO: There would be so many people I would find and punch in the mouth as I went through the day. There's so much shit I would do if I knew I would get a reset in the morning. It's just fucked up because you don't know when you're going to stop getting the reset.

ZT: Would you guys rather have reincarnation so you'd live through a different existence, or would you just rather when you die, just have nothing?

OK: I want reincarnation. As a human. I don't want it as animal.

CC: You want to be a Parisian girl? Where you could touch yourself?

OK: I would touch my own sex. I once met this Parisian girl after one of my shows and she asked me, she said, 'I really want you to touch my sex.' And she called her pussy her sex? 'You want to touch my sex?' And I was like, whoa! Whoaaa. That was years ago (laughs) I'll never forget that, man. What kind of shit is that?

CC: It is the real word. It's the real word for the sex. My penis is my sex.

OK: You want to touch my sex?

CC: When I speak with a French person, I say 'my sex hurts.' Yeah, for a woman or man, the vagina or penis is the sex.

OK: The vaji-ina. I love how you say it. (everyone laughs)

CC: The triangle. The hairy triangle.

OK: Oh god. OK gentlemen, where we at? Any more topics? You want to talk about Transformers: The Movie? Anything left?

FO: I feel like we talked about everything. I think we're good.