SameOldShawn: You talk about 2Pac and the idea of a thug, and the history of "thug" throughout his career. You say that his adoption of a thug identity -- what "thug" meant to him -- was kind of all over the place

Michael P. Jeffries: Yeah, it really was. I think that one of the things that trips people up when they talk about 2Pac is they want to trace his career as a straight line and with a very clear trajectory -- a starting point, evolution, and an ending point. And that's not the way the history of 2Pac actually works. He jumps around and goes back and forth

He certainly starts with a more politically conscious persona and moves in the direction of a more commercially conscious persona as his career evolves and his popularity increases. But he never totally rejects the political conscience that he had at the beginning

So all of this to say, when he first comes out with the idea of the thug, it's the acronym: "The Hate U Gave," he's talking about people who have been left behind, people who have been discounted and disparaged because of their race

And the more he uses it, it becomes sort of a sexy word. A word that connotes partying, a word that connotes power. A word that connotes not just a "fuck the world" mentality, but something that's attractive in a pop cultural sense

SOS: Right. "Thugging" becomes a verb that can mean almost anything

MPJ: Exactly. It can mean just about anything. Whereas when he first starts talking about it, it meant something specific, right? It was referring to a specific population of people who had been mistreated and counted out