Marc Spiegler: Hi this is Mark Spiegler and you’re listening to Intersections: The Art Basel Podcast; supported by UBS. This episode marks the first show of our second season, and we’ve had a lot of truly well-known people on this podcast. But it’s safe to say that none of them is as world famous as Namjoon Kim. He’s better known as RM, the leader of the K-Pop band BTS for almost a decade. And in the last few years, BTS has become a truly global force far beyond Korea, with an impact that transcends the music world. Because of his star status, Namjoon’s cultural influence is enormous.

So, when he started collecting art five years ago and being very public about it on his social media, it had a real impact for the artists, galleries and museums that he has supported. This is the first podcast that Namjoon has ever done in English, and the topics you’ll hear him discuss include: the rise of Korea as a cultural force, how an artist builds their legacy, and his plans to open a collection space in Seoul, Korea.

An unexpected thing happened just as we were preparing to release this episode. BTS shocked the music world with a major announcement; the groups members will be focusing on solo projects. But according to their management, they plan to remain active in “various different formats.” What this all means for BTS and Namjoon Kim, remains to be seen, but without a doubt this development casts his highly reflective comments in this interview, especially those concerning personal legacy and solo projects in a very different light. If you enjoy this conversation, please review and favorite Intersections wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.

Marc: Namjoon Kim, welcome to Intersections.

Namjoon: Hi!

Marc: Tell us where you are today, just to give our listeners something to hang their thoughts around

Namjoon: I’m in Seoul, because I live in South Korea, Seoul. And here it’s seven pm. I’m in my studio, this is our label studio. It’s my little studio -and there’s a little painting back over there, so, yeah

Marc: Let’s start at the beginning. I read in the interview preparation that you were introduced by a grade school teacher to Eminem; probably towards the beginning of his career?

Namjoon: It was thirteen, when I first listened to Eminem, I believe. And it was actually ‘Without Me’ and it was the movie, of course, ‘8 Mile’. It was a hit and for an adolescent kid, the rap and the face, and the acting he showed in the movie was so sensational. So, I thought like “oh man! I wanna be like him! I wanna do the nice English rapping someday like him. I wanna do some cypher, I wanna write the lyrics.” But before that, the fun thing is that when I was like ten or in elementary school, I really wanted to be a poet or a writer. So meeting Eminem and Nas, my dream of being a poet actually naturally moves to being a rapper.

Marc: Tell me -because I think it’s a fairly industrial complex in Korea- tell me how you entered the music system. Did you succeed right away? When did you start?

Namjoon: Okay, so, I got to know Eminem and Nas at thirteen years old, and from fourteen, I started to write my own lyrics and there was some online community -amateur musicians and rappers showing their lyrics and their music. It was really bad but it was really pure. So, I just got into the community showing my stuff and studio works, and then started my hobby. And I became sixteen! actually I just wanted to enter the system. Like you said, I wanted to enter an underground label in Korea. So, I actually sent my resume, my music, and then I got in but the final test was to have a real performance with the musicians. But I was like sixteen, I forgot my lyrics up on stage. I was so nervous, so, I sucked and I just felt like “oh man, I have no talent for this offline thing.” In the studio I think I was talented, I was great. But the stage was a whole different thing so, yeah, that happened and I entered high school and I just cut my hair. “Okay, this is my way, I should study. I should be a good student.”

But destiny is really funny because that performance I sucked at there was a famous rapper in Korea, and he saw my performance. He actually laughed at me because I forgot my lyrics but, I think he saw my potential I guess at that time. And he called me later like, “this company, Hybe, and the CEO, Mr. Bang, is looking for some young kids who can write lyrics and love rapping.” And I told him that I gave up already. I didn’t tell my parents but, I secretly met him and it happened like this.

Marc: What was his name?
Namjoon: Sleepy [laughs]

Marc: So, if Sleepy hadn’t called you, you would have become who knows? A businessman

Namjoon: Maybe a businessman like my dad, I guess

Marc: Yeah. Stagefright can hit everybody, but fortunately your stagefright wasn’t at all final. So was this the in-road into BTS, the band that you lead now or were there intermediary steps?

Namjoon: I was the first one to be a BTS member. So, actually Mr. Bang, which is our CEO, he started the team with me. He wanted me to be the first member and the leader, the first one to start the group. So, that’s how it happened; BTS. We started as trainees, and there were more than thirty people for BTS. But many of them dropped out. So, out of the thirty people, now we have seven members in this team. And we had our debut single in 2013 so, it’s been nine years, and we’ve been living together so far. So, it’s been twelve years for the whole journey, yeah

Marc: I think it’s safe to say that for the first half of those twelve years, BTS was primarily a Korean/Asian phenomenon but, then about five years ago you had this huge breakthrough in terms of social media -in terms of Billboard charts etc. And something happened there, and I’m curious, what happened? What was the thing that made BTS spread from being a primarily Korean phenomenon to being a global phenomenon? And what was it like to be on the inside of that? How did it feel to suddenly be a global star?

Namjoon: When we try to see BTS, you have to see the fans; the ARMYs. Because they’re like the half -the other wing, another wing of the team. They’re really special, and they’re not just about the enthusiasm or the energy. They actually did something. They sent letters to the American DJs to stream our songs on the radio because airplay is really important for the Billboard chart. So I think, that happened by the people and the love and to be at the eye of the hurricane is really strange. And the art, especially the fine visual art, helped me at this point to not be so crazy or hyped up like for the whole time.

Marc: So, that’s an interesting pivot for this conversation -which is, the reason why you’re on this podcast, is because you’ve become involved in the visual arts as a collector, but also as an influencer, as as supporter of the Korean art scene in particular. So, how did that start? Was it in this period, around 2017, 2018, that you were drawn to the arts? Do you remember how it started?

Namjoon: Yeah, I remember how it started. It was in 2018 which was four years ago. Actually I’ve got plenty of time when we are on tour in America or in Europe, I’m not actually a club person, and I have no such friends abroad. So, I’ve got plenty of time but, most of the time I spend my time in hotels watching YouTube or Netflix or some stuff. And I was really bored. So, one day I was like, “is there some site or some place I can go?” And why not go into a museum?

So the first site was the Chicago Art Institute, and it was 2018. I just went there and saw the amazing paintings they’ve got there. Seurat, Monet, Picasso -the artists that I knew before I entered into the art world. So, it was, for me, the first time -because there were no such museums or places that I could see those artists’ paintings for real

I just felt the thrill and, they’re all dead but for now, in 2018, some outsider from South Korea, in here; in this small room, me and his footprint or some pieces of his time encountered. And it still gives me a thrill, and I was so jealous. What is in art? What is this color? What do they mean?
So, yeah that first experience got me really interested and I’ve had many chances to visit all the famous museums because I was always in Paris, New York, LA and stuff

Marc: It’s interesting Namjoon, you probably don’t know this, and I hadn’t realized precisely how this started but, I’m actually from Chicago. The Chicago Institute is also one of my first museums

Namjoon: Oh! Really!?
Marc: Yeah, absolutely

Namjoon: Wow!

Marc: Yeah, that’s really interesting. So, if I could tie this narrative together; there’s this moment where, not only do you have all the pressures that come with being a global star, but also you have the opportunity; because suddenly you’re doing global concert tours- to visit museums all over the world

Namjoon: Right

Marc: Tell me how things evolved for you, in terms of getting more and more engaged with the art world. Were there particular incidents that kind of brought you deeper to where you are now?

Namjoon: The moment from 2017, The Billboard Music Awards -it was in May so, five years ago from now. As time passes by, we were involved in the major music industry like The Grammys or The BBMAs or The AMAs or CBS, NBC, Jimmy Fallen, Kimmel, Ellen shows. So, those things were my bucketlist when I was young. To see the actual Grammys and meet the great artists like Drake -I even met Nas which is my idol, the people who I always see on TV and YouTube, was firstly; unbelievable.
But, ironically, I found myself, my roots, in America I think. I realized, me, myself, as a born Korean, in the hotel, in Los Angeles. I just -oh man, I couldn’t leave my country. As time passed by, more and more, I got to miss the country -my home, my friends. So, firstly, I was wondering: why can’t I name any -one Korean visual artist in this art world?

I can name thousands of Korean musicians, myself; but I couldn’t name one single Korean painter. So, I was wondering, and after I came to Korea; I started visiting lots of museums in Korea. Korea is a small country so there’s not many museums or great galleries. But when I have time, I always visit the museums and the galleries in Korea. I started trying to research, “is there any Korean artists I can respect? Or I can get inspired as an older brother or as a father of this art world?” So, that’s how it started

Marc: What was the first artwork that you bought?

Namjoon: I bought it from an auction. It’s a Korean artist’s painting. A small mountain painted in 1976, his name is Daiwon Lee. He’s famous in Korea; something like Impressionism maybe. First I looked into it, and I just liked it, and I just bought it. [laughs] But when I set it up on my wall, then I understood what making a collection, and then filling the walls. So it was really strange and it was really, something like spiritual for me still

Marc: To wrap it back a little bit, we started talking about the music, and now we’re talking about art. I’m curious, how you think that your engagement with the art world has influenced you as a musician and as a creator?

Namjoon: I really love to use expressions a lot, I don’t like to divide the art world, but when I see the painters and the artists; most of them get their fame after their death. So, when I see the artists -their work, visual art, fine art is a really long time thing. It’s a long period thing because somebody’s painting this in their twenties, somebody changes their painting in their thirties, and they start making sculpture in their forties; something like that. When I see them, I can be brave.

I’m twenty-nine in Korea. When we turn into thirty , it’s a different thing. It’s still young, I’m still just a young man but in a world of boy bands, turning into thirty is something different; in kpop. That’s really sad, but it’s a fact. So, I feel like “okay, is this my prime time? Is this the highlight of my whole life? Because I’m twenty-nine and I could live, like, maybe 100 years. That’s really sad if that’s my prime time.” So I just want to make it long.

Marc: So, it’s interesting Namjoon because in the beginning we talked about how you came to the art world partially as a result of blowing up, and becoming a global star. But what you’re saying now, as you’re coming up to what people say is the traditional expiration date for a boy band star; actually seeing what happened to the career of visual artists, encourages you to think longer
Namjoon: Oh, that’s the best summarization [laughs]

Marc: So, the question is: what does it inspire you to do? Because by definition you can’t be a boyband forever. At some point you’re not even close to being a boy anymore. I’m curious if you have thoughts about how to achieve that longevity or trying to achieve that longevity?
Joon: Actually, I think it already started by collecting. I think, okay, I have this precious piece in my home and I see it everyday; I wake up everyday in front of it. So, I have to be a better one -like them I don’t want to make them feel ashamed about me. [laughs] It’s a really private thing -it’s a really funny thing but, it really gives me the standard to live as a better man and as a better adult, and an artist sometimes. I just want to make music like the timeless piece that I admire. And I know it’s funny to say about the timeless or the long term impact because I’m too young to copy or chase the lifetime thing. But I think it will really help me for my thirties and my forties to know this.

Marc: It sounds like what you’re saying is: by surrounding yourself with artists, many of who are dead and yet who’s legacy continues today, you create a benchmark -a kind of visual benchmark around yourself for what it is you’re trying to achieve. I guess I have to ask the question, do you imagine that one day there will be a Namjoon Kim, private museum in Korea?

Namjoon: [laughs] So, a museum itself is really complicated right? They need curators and exhibitions. This is my first time actually saying this but, seriously, I’m planning to make a small space of my own private collection and just make a café on the first floor, and set up my collection on the second floor and third floor. People could always see the collections when they just want to see them.

When people come to Korea -it happens for Koreans too- we cannot see the great Korean artists because there are not many museums right now. There are not many galleries right now. So, I just want to make my own some time

Marc: It’s interesting. Obviously social media is a big part of our lives right now. With your social media power, and the fact that you post alot on Instagram for example, or artworks, of museums; do you have the sense that people follow you -when you go to a museum, when you show the work of an artist, your fans are then going to see those museums, are then curious about those artists? You have this capacity to amplify almost anything that you publicly associate yourself with

Namjoon: I’m so grateful for the fans, they admire my posts and tastes. So I think of myself and my Instagram account posts as kind of like a curation already. Because I always upload the posts that I really liked about the exhibition or the museum or the site or gallery. And people -the fans visit after me, when I post it. And it’s really great that people can love one’s tastes and actually be there -visit the museums and the art. When 300 people see the same artwork, they have 300 different feelings. So, someday I just wish to share thoughts about the art, and of course my collection too later.

Marc: To broaden out the conversation a little bit; whether you’re looking at BTS or the film Parasite or Squid Game or danse quad- the movement from the 70’s which became very prominent four or five years ago in the market; it’s been a very strong moment on the global cultural scene for Korean culture. And I’m curious if you have any thoughts as to why that is

Namjoon: So, Korea is a strange and unique and interesting country because we had the horrible war in the 1950s that divided into the north and south. It’s a really small country. In the 60’s we were a country that gets supported by the other nations but, fifty years later, we have changed the position from supported to supporter. So, Korea -I cannot guarantee the characteristics about it that define it. But as one Korean, I guess, we have the passion inside. We have our energy in some specific spirit. We call it “Han” in Korean, I’m not sure how to say it in English. But after the war, and the victimization of our parents, grandparents -those times, seventy years, made the 2022 of Korea right now, I guess

Marc: So for you this is kind of a delayed impact that lead to this kind of focus-

Namjoon: I guess, and we really got a lot of benefits and advantages from the new media; Youtube, Netflix -specifically social media. All we do is push this button on the remote and we can see this whole series of Korean dramas or movies so, I think it makes a premiere and a brand. So, when people have an interest about the korean made thing, I think people can- “okay, I’d like to watch some Korean thing,” and I think it’s really amazing. And that’s the power of a culture, I guess

Marc: Yeah, what’s interesting is, Korea as a cultural brand in and of itself is strong now. The fact that it’s Korean makes people pay attention to it, which is a very interesting and new development I think

Namjoon: Right, so I feel the flow, and I feel a lot of responsibility as one person in this big flow

Marc: So, talking more specifically, when you were introduced to hip-hop, it was an American import to Korea

Namjoon: Of course, of course

Marc: And now, twelve, fifteen years later; you’re part of a major Korean import to America. So there’s been a reversal of that. Is it strange to you that people who don’t speak Korean are huge fans of yours and that you’re being asked to do features with Lil Nas X? This is a completely different thing. Now, Korean culture is spreading to America which is where all this stuff came from

Namjoon: It’s really odd because we never expected this. We never knew that there was gonna be a Youtube world or Netflix world in 2022. I didn’t expect it at all. When we go to America or Europe, what they’re mostly surprised about us is the concerts because there are lots of stadiums. And we usually do four sold out shows in the stadium. And there are really a few artists in total, including all the American and European artists, to be able to make four sold out stadium shows in America or in Europe or in Asia. So, they’re like, “who is BTS!? How could they do four sold our stadium shows?! Who are they?!”

So, I think it’s really [laughs] -I don’t know -it’s still odd to us. I act like a musician, I act like a star on the stage but, under the stage; when I come to Korea or when I come back to my small studio, I’m just a collector. I just go to art prices or art [inaudible] and search the news and eat some bulgogi with my friends -that’s all for me. For most of my life.

So, it’s still odd and strange for me because I’m just a country man in some small country called Korea still [laughs]. So yeah, it’s a different type of thing but, it’s fun and I feel so lucky to experience this whole, two different types of lives. It’s like making a movie -shooting a movie [laughs]

Marc: Yeah. A lot of artists, when they become popular, when they start to have a lot of engagement, when they start to have a lot of attention; need to change the way in which they create. And I’m curious, how do you nurture your creative process? What are your tricks? What are your rituals? How do you find a room to create, when obviously everybody just wants you to perform all the time?

Namjoon: I really want myself to be calm, and I just want to make my music not caring about the other factors I guess. The thing is that, being a team member, it does mean that we have to sacrifice our own soul or our own personality. We have to cut it out because there are seven personalities; and we were nineteen or eighteen when we started as a team. Now we’re almost thirty, we became men and adults. So, we have different characters or maybe some different future visions. BTS is still really important for me and it’s still the biggest part of me, but keeping this intensity as a team makes it easy to forget who I was and why I started this thing. And I just want to remind and reminisce, myself, why I started this. What can I do with my own thing? So, for my thirties I just want to figure out the way to exist like a half-way for the BTS member and leader RM, and maybe just Namjoon Kim himself. I guess

Marc: I think that’s a great place to end this interview. But of course we have our two signature questions

Namjoon: Oh yeah [laughs]

Marc: First, what is the first artwork that you remember seeing?

Namjoon: It was Monet. Monet’s ‘The Lunch’. I don’t think it’s the actual first work I’ve seen of course, but that’s the first crush for me to meet the art world for me.

Marc: And then what’s the last artwork that moved you, and why?

Namjoon: It’s not a specific artwork but the artist. It’s Phillip Guston. I felt really attracted to his pink-red colors for the first time. But I didn’t know he started his career as one of the abstract expressionists with Rothko or Pollock. He was one of the important members of the team, but not like the others. He bravely changed his whole world. I’ve heard that many people laughed at him “why did you change it? You betrayed.” But I think if he didn’t change his style, I think he would remain as just one of the members of Abstract Expressionism. Like, just a friend of Pollock or Rothko, but because he changed his style and he bravely encountered the issues and traumas of his young life; he can be Guston himself. Not like the member of some trend or some time. I’m just so impressed that he did it because it’s just so different with his fifties and seventies

Marc: That’s a great answer, and I’m not sure if you’re conscious of it but it actually loops back to a lot of the themes we talked about. The notion of: if you’re in a popular movement what do you do to become unique? What do you do to create a legacy? What do you do to sustain your impact on the world?

Joon: mhmm

Mark: Namjoon, that was wonderful, what a great way to end. Thank you so much for all the time and speaking to us from the heart!